Inner tie rod or entire steering rack?
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by peculiarodor » Fri Nov 21, 10:58 am
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My 88 sr5 has some mystery clunk issues but after checking tie rod ends, ball joints and bushings, all seems fine there. the play seems to be coming from further up the assembly. My certified nissan mechanic friend said to do the inner tie rod. i had heard talk that there is no inner tie rod on this vehicle and that it is integrated into the steering rack assembly. can anyone confirm or deny this? when i search online for replacement parts i have been unable to find inner tie rods, only outer/ends which leads me to believe that there are no serviceable inner tie rods. true? thank you!
Re: Inner tie rod or entire steering rack?
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by Gottolovem » Fri Nov 21, 1:08 pm
I'll give this a shot others may have a better explanation.
oem Part#e is the inside tie rod end "flexible joint" it is really the outside "flexible joint" on the steering rack if this is the part you need to have replaced i would just get another rack all together. I don't think their that high priced and you would have piece of mind that the entire steering unit is new
If i'm wrong i'm sure someone else will correct me soon enough
Your clunk could also be a number of other things
Bad cv joint
broken engine mount(this happened to me)
wheel bearing
broken strut mount"top of strut" (very common)
Re: Inner tie rod or entire steering rack?
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by Petros » Fri Nov 21, 1:49 pm
yes, there are both inner and outer tie-rod ends, but as DLB points out, the inner one actually attaches to the end of the steering rack. It is not too bad a job if you have the right tools available (they can get really stuck in place).
Usually you will not get a noticeable clunk from worn tie-rod ends, and it has been my observation that even with a little play in them, they are a long way from failing or causing any detrimental effect. I have driven many many thousands of miles with worn and loose tie-rod ends (both inner and out), and no one driving it would ever know it. If they are worn and have some play in them, they should be replaced, but there is usually no panic or need to rush to get it fixed.
If you have something worn enough in the whole steering system to cause a noticable clunk you will usually feel it in the steering wheel, as it feeds back up through the system. If you can feel it in the steering wheel, it is easy to check, jack the front end up and than pull the wheels in and out, put your other hand on each of the joints: lower ball joint, outer tie rod end, inner tie rod (under the acordian boot), and on the steering rack. also have someone saw back and fourth on the steering wheel and do it again. alos check the steering u-joint on the steering shaft just above the steering rack. You can also put the wheels back on the ground and do it again from the steering wheel, push and pulling on it hard, and than observe the rack mounts, if those are worn out the whole rack with slop around (a small amount of controlled movement is normal for it since it is mounted in rubber mounts).
Any of these can be worn and have play, a slight amount will not be noticeable, it would have to be really loose and sloppy, with noticeable both visual and felt play in any of these parts.
If you do not feel it though the steering wheel than more likely it is lower ball joint, or inner bushing on the lower arms, or anti-sway bar mounts on the lower arm or on the front ones from bar to frame mount (less common). Less common but it can occur, is bad struts, or upper strut mount (the big rubber mount you can see from the engine compartment at the top of the strut tower).
One other thing I had happen on mine (which has close to 400k miles on the chassis, most on rough gravel roads), is the welds around the lower suspension mounts (including the welded nut on the inside of the frame that holds the bolts on the suspension), and around the upper mount on the strut tower, will fatigue and break off, or get full of tiny cracks that allows more flex in the frame. This will cause poping and groans, everytime you stress the frame. the most severe flex where you will notice this is when you go down a driveway to the street at a diagonal, where two wheels get light, and most of the weight is carried on two oppostie side front and rear wheels. The fix with this is to add a strut tower brace, and stitch weld all of the compromised steams and welds.
good luck.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
Re: Inner tie rod or entire steering rack?
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by Petros » Fri Nov 21, 2:03 pm
Fyi:
steering rack mount:
inner tie rod end (it is under the accordian boot, the short threaded end goes into the end of the rack):
outer tie-rod end, with threaded adjustment sleeve:
front sway bar mount:
lower ball joint:
Upper strut mount:
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
Re: Inner tie rod or entire steering rack?
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by dlb » Fri Nov 21, 2:11 pm
tercels have inner and outer tie rods, they are two separate components. the inner ones are easy to replace, the only tip i recommend is this: the flats of the inner tie rod are pretty thin but they are torqued into the rack pretty good. so what i have done is grind down the sides of the jaws of a large crescent wrench so that i can really secure it on the flats. the rest of the job is very straight forward.
oh another more obvious tip: whichever side you're working on, turn the steering wheel to that the area you're working on has the best exposure possible. i really struggled with poor access until i realized i could just turn the wheel and move the part i'm working on.
you'll have to check and adjust your toe in afterwards. use keith's easy as pie technique.
https://tercel4wd.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=
Re: Inner tie rod or entire steering rack?
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by peculiarodor » Fri Nov 21, 3:40 pm
Thanks everybody. My Nissan mechanic friend and I did those tests this a.m. and the noticeable play we discovered in the wheels was in horizontal play (front to back) rather than vertical play (top to bottom). When playing with the steering wheel with the wheels lifted and on the ground, the play felt like it was coming from under the accordion boot into the rack. He diagnosed a left inner tie rod. Does anyone have a good online resource for these inner tie rods? My usual source only seems to supply the outer tie rods. Thank you for the pictures, too. This is a great help!
Re: Inner tie rod or entire steering rack?
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by Petros » Fri Nov 21, 3:51 pm
rockauto.com. has everything you need at great prices. search this forum for the current discount code too.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
So what is the secret to getting the inner tie rod boot on the rack lip? I remember last time I replaced the front left inner tie rod end on '00obw, it was a major pain to get the boot to go on the lip on the rack. I had to tug and tug and horse around with it for a good while before it finally just popped into place.
Having same problem this time on '96 Legacy. It starts going on but I can't quite get it to go on all the way around.
I have a bent ended pair of long nosed pliers, I use them between the boot and rack and slide them around a bit like a tyre tool. Because they are bent they can reach up over the top as well as the bottom.
Perhaps you could make a special tool out of a small round rod. About 1/8 bright steel would be good. Bend the end two inches about thirty degrees(that's the used end), bent the other end inot a "U", for a handle, taper the tool end a bit and round the point so it wont dig in and you will be away.
Yes! It is that top part. I can get it on just about all the way around but that top end is very little clearance clarence. I have tried only 37 times up to now, so I am glad to hear that within 10 more tries it should go on! I thought about maybe trying to heat the boot up a little bit to make it more flexible not sure.
If you are looking for more details, kindly visit Zegao Machinery.
I am using long pliers to kind of pull it onto the lip since you really can't get fingers into all the cranies in there. It is kind of rough on the boot but it's the best I can do.
I remember this being a problem the last time and then finally when I just thought there was no possible chance it would go it popped on there so I will have to keep at it.
Hm silicone spray, I could try it. I did grease all the areas ahead of time.
I have a bent ended pair of long nosed pliers, I use them between the boot and rack and slide them around a bit like a tyre tool. Because they are bent they can reach up over the top as well as the bottom.
Perhaps you could make a special tool out of a small round rod. About 1/8 bright steel would be good. Bend the end two inches about thirty degrees(that's the used end), bent the other end inot a "U", for a handle, taper the tool end a bit and round the point so it wont dig in and you will be away.
Thanks for the idea, I was trying to figure out something like that that might work without ripping the boot.....Hm..I wonder if a stiff coat hanger with the end bent over so it isn't sharp would be of any use. I have been trying some longish pliers with a bent over end just still couldn't quite get that top part to slip on.
haha I also noticed the Subaru service manual shows removing the entire rack to replace the inner tie rod ends.....maybe this is why!
That's because they only have two flats on the OEM rod ends and they don't always line up in a way that a wrench will go on them. You're also supposed to punch the outer tabs on the lock washer back out before you loosen the rod. Can't really do that with it on the car because you can generally only get to one side. Luckily the washers are cheap, and the inner tabs shear off easily if you give the rod end a good turn with a pair of channel locks.
i exaggerated, it doesn't really take that many tried, you should be able to get it. sounds like you're having a particularly good run here.
i'm almost wondering if you have too much grease or something all over the boot/lip of the rack? that might make it slip off too easily once you get it in place?
hold it extra tight, get what you can over the lip...then rotate the part that's you can get on into the area you can't reach...then holding each side you can reach work your way around while maintaining the position of the installed top part. again, tight and steady grip and it'll eventually go. keep trying and tweaking in slightly different ways.
Woohoo it's on! Thanks for all the help guys. I was trying this evening with two long reach pliers to yank it on there. It kept almost going but not quite.
The I used some silicone spray as nipper suggested on there though I didn't think it would make any difference. Bingo, sschlooaapop is the sound it made as the very next try it popped right on all the way around. Something about that silicone spray just reallyy helps.
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